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Carroll Surname


HaplogroupCoordinatorDefining Ancestor(s)
R1b
Branch SNP R1b-DF27
Terminal SNP R1b-CTS4299 		Randy Harr
r a n d y AT mcuz DOT us		Zachariah Carroll, b1829, Franklin County, TN

Some researchers studying the line of interest here (Franklin County, TN throughout the 1800's) are shown in a table here.
ResearcherTreeEKANotes
Ron CarrollAncJames Carroll, b1666, Ulster, Ireland 1 Ron's real ancestry; down R1b-M222
Ron CarrollAncWilliam W. Carroll, b1794abt1 Father of Zachariah Carroll
Lisa LutkeAncZachariah Carroll b1829, Franklin County, TN
Randy HarrMyCuzZachariah Carroll b1829, Franklin County, TNSource of last resort; have done the least research on the line
1We actually know Ron is in a different haplogroup line down below M222 and with Northern Ireland roots. But he studied the line of interest here in hopes of seeing if they are actually linked. The two lines co-existed near each other in the 1800's. Ron has one more generation back from Zachariah to a William W. Carroll b1794abt and lists no siblings to Zachariah. Will need to do more Autosomal and yDNA testing of more branches to see if an NPE comes in to explain this connection to the Muse surname.

Carroll Surname Studies

Not knowing how far back the likely NPE for the branch here exists, it still behooves us to follow the Carroll surname studies. See the links below for the FTDNA projects. Even though such a common surname, there are not many studies found nor a very active FTDNA project covering it. In the DNA project, like all common-surname projects, there are so many NPEs that the project gets quickly watered down to looking like a general phylogenetic tree with very dissimilar STR haplotypes in the same haplogroup.

There are no DNA matches with our Carroll tester to other testers with the surname Carroll. Ron is down R1b-M222 — a very large, deep, similar-STR-values haplogroup or clade that is often associated with (Northern) Irish origin. There is only one public R1b-DF27 clade in the Carroll FTDNA project: R1b-Y5058 which is DF27 -> BY2285 -> Y5076 -> Y5058. This clade is very small (in terms of branching and participating testers). This as opposed to our testers' clade with the Muse's; which is DF27 -> Z195 -> Z198 -> ... CTS4299. Look at the public Carroll project result page and search for "Y5058".

Interestingly, most of the members in the R1b-Y5058 clade in the Carroll FTDNA project are not Carroll's. The STR values are similar enough but only to be classified under the R1b-DF27 parent haplogroup for them all.

There are no Muse's in the Carroll project that are publicly displayed. It appears the vast majority of Carroll project members are down R1b-L21: a very early branch off of R1b-P312 like R1b-DF27. There is a private clade in the Carroll project of DF27 -> Z195 -> Z272 -> ... Z278. Although a little closer to our predicted haplogroup for our Carroll tester, it does not detail any members or other information. The STR min/max/mode values appear farther off in the early values than the earlier mentioned R1b-Y5058 group.

For convenience, the yFull links to the clades mentioned here are: CTS4299, Y5058, Z278, M222 and L21. R1b-P312 and R1b-DF27 can be easily found in the tabs across the top of the first two listed. Similar links for the FTDNA public tree and yTree can be determined by the reader.

For our tester, we likely need to rename this page and study for the Muse Surname based on the yDNA 37 marker test matching. There are only 14 matches at y37 with every single one with the surname Muse. See the Y STR Analysis chart below showing this. All in the Z208 clade seem to trace their common ancestor to a John Muse, b1633 in Bedford, England who then comes to Westmoreland County in colonial Virginia. Google searching this line finds a few trees on the web. Within the FamilyTreeDNA match lists, a few have their genealogies attached. From that we can find a potential overlap of time and place. A few have the line:
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John Muse b.1633 Bedford, England; d.1723 Westmoreland County, VA
 +Thomas Muse b.1655 Westmoreland, VA; d.1729 Westmoreland, VA
   +James Muse b.1710 Westmoreland, VA; d.1758 Cumberland County, NC
     +James Muse b.1731 Westmoreland, VA; d.1781 Cumberland County, NC
       +James Dunn Muse b.27Nov1757 Cumberland County, NC; d.20Jan1843 Bedford, TN
        +Jason Christopher Muse b.1780 ?, NC; d.1860, ?, TN
          + Jason Christopher Muse b.1815  ?, NC; d.28Mar1899 Webster County, Missouri

Jason is tester and match Jay Lee Muse's 2x Great-Grandfather. Tester Roger Muse breaks off Jay's line with Thomas Muse (brother to James Dunn). Thomas and son end up dying in Mississippi with one line going to Texas after. No Muse surnames are showing in Autosomal matching to our tester (nor Carroll for that matter). In Y STR Analysis chart, Jay appears more likely closest with another group / line but is only a single STR value off (by one) from our Carroll tester here. The Carroll tester does match identically with y37 STRs to a few in that Muse group.

Y STR Analysis

Of surprise in the return of the y37 result (after having two nulls on y12 and therefore no matches there) was that all matches at y25 and y37 are the surname Muse — 14 in total. This included two identical matches (assuming the nulls are a match). So we are starting to investigate with these matches as to the time and geographic location of their ancestors to see if an overlap with the Carroll's can be made. It appears most of these fourteen matches are in a Muse surname project already. Others should be. We can see not only the identical matches but many 1-off from our Carroll tester int hat project. (Note: we assume the nulls are a match for purposes of comparing haplotypes here.)

As the Muse Surname Project is dormant, we did a deeper analysis of the R haplogroup members in the Muse surname project. Using their available public results page. Depicted here is that public results page but annotated and grouped into more refined haplogroups. Analysis includes not only displayed, tested haplogroups and haplotype comparisons; but deeper prediction of the haplogroup from STR values by NevGen. Even though included in the public chart of the surname project, we have cut out the FTDNA Kit numbers from our annotated version shown here.

Key is there are many close STR matches. And they all clump in R1b_Z208.

Y SNP Analysis

Preliminary analysis, based on NevGen analysis of all the y37 matches in the Muse project and SNP packs taken there, indicates the tester is down in the R-CTS4299 haplogroup below R-DF27. See the external links in the table below for this position in the various trees.

Depicted here is a comparison of the branching path from P312 down to CTS4299 of the three major trees (captured 22 Dec 2018). It is needed as the different tree companies will name the same haplogroup with different member SNPs. Or introduce slightly different branching in the middle based on their analysis.
TreeHaplogroup (block name)
FTDNAP312 - - DF27Z195Z198ZS312Z267SRY2627Z202Z205 - Z206Z208Z207 - CTS4299
yTreeP312Z40481ZZ11DF27 /S250Z195 /S355Z198ZS312Z262M167Z264Z205~22224168-A-CZ206 /S235Z208 /S362Z207 /S251CTS9762CTS4299
yFullP312 - - DF27Z195Z198Z292Z262Z201Z202Z205 - Z206Z208Z207CTS9762CTS4299

Bolded, black SNPs are in one or both of the experimental Y trees and not in the FTDNA private / public tree. SRY2627 is an equivalent name for SNP M167. Z201 is simply one of the 11 SNPs in that block and what yFull happened to use to name the block, Z264 and Z202 are two of four SNPs in the same block. Z267 and Z262 are two of four SNPs in the same block. Z292 and ZS312 are the two SNPs in the same block. ZS312 has 7 equivalent names it is named by as well! Z198 is the FTDNA SNP Pack available. Z208 is the predicted haplogroup based on STR values from NevGen for all so grouped. In summary, the only real variation between the experimental trees is some additional haplogroups (blocks, clades) inserted or deleted.

We replicate the Y STR Analysis section chart from above here for this more detailed description of that work. We ran our tester and all his matches through the NEVGEN tool. As well as all the rest of the R major haplogroup of the Muse project. The results are depicted in the chart. (Note: The Muse project is dormant and has not grouped the members by Haplogroup based on Haplotype groups or further analysis of STR matching like done here.) All the matches that are Muse and in the surname project, as well as others there, predict reliably to Haplogroup R-Z208. This is deeper than than the one tested there of R-SRY2627 that is an identical y37 STR match to our tester. But R-Z208 is not quite as deep as the one other tested to R-CTS4299. As the latter is only a GD of 1 from our tester and the other who tested for R-SRT2627, we classify this whole group likely to be R-CTS4299 while we await them to test deeper (as well as our tester).

Created by Randy. Last Modification: Tuesday 22 of September, 2020 17:38:09 EDT by Randy. (Version 15)
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