Carroll Surname


HaplogroupCoordinatorDefining Ancestor(s)
R1b
Branch SNP R1b-DF27
Terminal SNP R1b-CTS4299 		Randy Harr
r a n d y AT mcuz DOT us		Zachariah Carroll, b1829, Franklin County, TN

Some researchers studying the line of interest here (Franklin County, TN throughout the 1800's) are shown in a table here.
ResearcherTreeEKANotes
Ron CarrollAncJames Carroll, b1742, Ulster, Ireland 1 Ron's real ancestry; down R1b-M222
Ron CarrollAncWilliam W. Carroll, b1794abt1 Father of Zachariah Carroll in Ron's tree
Lisa LutkeAncZachariah Carroll b1829, Franklin County, TN
Randy HarrMyCuzZachariah Carroll b1829, Franklin County, TNSource of last resort; have done the least research on the line
1We actually know Ron is in a different yDNA haplogroup below R1b-M222 and with Northern Ireland roots. But he studied the line of interest here in hopes of seeing if they are actually linked. The two lines co-existed near each other in the 1800's. Ron has one more generation back from Zachariah to a William W. Carroll b1794abt and lists no siblings to Zachariah.

Our Carroll line has no yDNA matches to others with the Carroll surname. But does have lots of yDNA matches to a Muse surname line. Will need to wait or find more to Autosomal and yDNA test to determine if an NPE comes in to explain this connection to the Muse surname. And where and when it was introduced.

Carroll Surname Studies

Not knowing how far back the likely NPE for the branch here exists, it still behooves us to follow the Carroll surname studies. See the links below for the FTDNA projects. Even though such a common surname, there are not many studies found nor a very active FTDNA project covering it. In the FTDNA project, like others for common-surname projects, there are so many, many different lines with the surname. So the project gets quickly diluted in a general phylogenetic tree with very dissimilar STR haplotypes in the same haplogroup.

There are no DNA matches with our Carroll tester to other testers with the surname Carroll. Ron is down R1b-M222 — a very large, deep, similar-STR-values haplogroup or clade that is often associated with (Northern) Irish origin. There is only one public R1b-DF27 clade in the Carroll FTDNA project: R1b-Y5058 which is DF27 -> BY2285 -> Y5076 -> Y5058. This clade is very small (in terms of branching and participating testers). This as opposed to our testers' clade match with the Muse's; which is DF27 -> Z195 -> Z198 -> ... CTS4299. Look at the public Carroll project result page and search for "Y5058".

Interestingly, most of the members in the R1b-Y5058 clade in the Carroll FTDNA project are not Carroll's. The STR values are similar enough but only to be classified under the R1b-DF27 parent haplogroup for them all.

There are no Muse's in the Carroll project (at least none that are publicly displayed). It appears the vast majority of Carroll project members are down R1b-L21: a very early branch off of R1b-P312 like R1b-DF27. There is a private clade in the Carroll project of DF27 -> Z195 -> Z272 -> ... Z278. Although a little closer to our predicted haplogroup for our Carroll tester, it does not detail any members or other information. The STR min/max/mode values appear farther off in the early values than the earlier mentioned R1b-Y5058 group.

For convenience, the yFull links to the clades mentioned here are: CTS4299, Y5058, Z278, M222 and L21. R1b-P312 and R1b-DF27 can be easily found in the tabs across the top of the first two listed. Similar links for the FTDNA public haplotree and yTree can be determined by the reader.

For our tester, we likely need to rename this page and study for the Muse Surname based on the yDNA 37 marker test matching he has. There are 15 matches for our tester at y37 with every single one with the surname Muse. See the Y STR Analysis chart below showing this. All are in the Z208 clade and seem to trace their common ancestor to a John Muse, b1633 in Bedford, England who then comes to Westmoreland County in colonial Virginia. Google searching this line finds a few trees on the web. Within the FamilyTreeDNA match lists, a few have their genealogies attached. From that we can find a potential overlap of time and place. A few have the line:
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John Muse b.1633 Bedford, England; d.1723 Westmoreland County, VA
 +Thomas Muse b.1655 Westmoreland, VA; d.1729 Westmoreland, VA
   +James Muse b.1710 Westmoreland, VA; d.1758 Cumberland County, NC
     +James Muse b.1731 Westmoreland, VA; d.1781 Cumberland County, NC
       +James Dunn Muse b.27Nov1757 Cumberland County, NC; d.20Jan1843 Bedford, TN
        +Jason Christopher Muse b.1780 ?, NC; d.1860, ?, TN
          + Jason Christopher Muse b.1815  ?, NC; d.28Mar1899 Webster County, Missouri

Jason is tester and match Jay Lee Muse's 2x Great-Grandfather. Tester Roger Muse breaks off Jay's line with Thomas Muse (brother to James Dunn). Thomas and son end up dying in Mississippi with one line going to Texas after. No Muse surnames are showing in Autosomal matching to our tester (nor Carroll for that matter). In the Y STR Analysis chart, Jay appears more likely closest with another group / line but is only a single STR value off (by one) from our Carroll tester here.

Our Carroll tester does match identically with y37 STRs to the Muse group. In fact, the closest matching is a GD of 3. So it is possible that the Carroll line is distinct in the surname era/

Y STR Analysis

Of surprise in the return of the y37 result (after having two nulls on y12 and therefore no matches there) was that all matches at y25 and y37 are the surname Muse — 15 in total. So we are starting to investigate with these matches as to the time and geographic location of their ancestors to see if an overlap with the Carroll's can be made. It appears most of these fifteen matches are in a Muse surname project already. Others should be. (Note: we assume the nulls are a match for purposes of comparing haplotypes here.)

As the Muse surname project is dormant, we did our own deeper analysis of the R haplogroup members there. Using their available public results page. Depicted here is that public results page but annotated and grouped into more refined haplogroups. Analysis includes not only displayed, tested haplogroups and haplotype comparisons; but deeper prediction of the haplogroup from STR values by NevGen. Even though included in the public chart of the surname project, we have cut out the FTDNA Kit numbers from our annotated version shown here.

Key is there are many close STR matches. And they all clump in R1b_Z208.

We have since upgraded our tester to y111 STR testing and there is no real new information from that. Still only Muse matches at the higher level with the closest being a GD of 6 at y111.

Y SNP Analysis

Preliminary analysis, based on NevGen analysis of all the y37 matches in the Muse project and SNP packs taken there, indicates the tester is down in the R-CTS4299 haplogroup below R-DF27. See the external links in the table given by us below for this position in the various trees.

It ends up none of his matches have actually ySNP tested directly. Instead, this R-CTS4299 is coming from FTDNA now interpreting their own yDNA portions of the FamilyFinder microarray chip test. FamilyFinder happens to test CTS4299 in the just over 10,000 yDNA SNPs tested. Only one of our testers 15 matches has done anything other than an STR test. And that is the one listed as CTS4299 and due to FamilyFinder. We have since tested our tester on FamilyFinder since his BigY failed. So he is also confirmed to R-CTS4299. As of Jan 2025, there are over 175 subclades to R-CTS4299 and so a more refined clade is definitely attainable if any were to test deeper.

Depicted here is a comparison of the branching path from P312 down to CTS4299 of the three major trees (captured 22 Dec 2018). It is needed as the different tree companies will name the same haplogroup with different member SNPs. Or introduce slightly different branching in the middle based on their analysis.
TreeHaplogroup (block name)
FTDNAP312 - - DF27Z195Z198ZS312Z267SRY2627Z202Z205 - Z206Z208Z207 - CTS4299
yTreeP312Z40481ZZ11DF27 /S250Z195 /S355Z198ZS312Z262M167Z264Z205~22224168-A-CZ206 /S235Z208 /S362Z207 /S251CTS9762CTS4299
yFullP312 - - DF27Z195Z198Z292Z262Z201Z202Z205 - Z206Z208Z207CTS9762CTS4299

Bolded, black SNPs are in one or both of the experimental Y trees and not in the FTDNA private / public tree. SRY2627 is an equivalent name for SNP M167. Z201 is simply one of the 11 SNPs in that block and what yFull happened to use to name the block, Z264 and Z202 are two of four SNPs in the same block. Z267 and Z262 are two of four SNPs in the same block. Z292 and ZS312 are the two SNPs in the same block. ZS312 has 7 equivalent names it is named by as well! Z198 is the FTDNA SNP Pack available. Z208 is the predicted haplogroup based on STR values from NevGen for all so grouped. In summary, the only real variation between the experimental trees is some additional haplogroups (blocks, clades) inserted or deleted.

We replicate the Y STR Analysis section chart from above here for this more detailed description of that work. We ran our tester and all his matches through the NEVGEN tool. As well as all the rest of the R major haplogroup of the Muse project. The results are depicted in the chart. (Note: The Muse project is dormant and has not grouped the members by Haplogroup based on Haplotype groups or further analysis of STR matching like done here.) All the matches that are Muse and in the surname project, as well as others there, predict reliably to Haplogroup R-Z208. This is deeper than than the one tested there of R-SRY2627 that is an identical y37 STR match to our tester. But R-Z208 is not quite as deep as the one other tested to R-CTS4299. As the latter is only a GD of 1 from our tester and the other who tested for R-SRT2627, we classify this whole group likely to be R-CTS4299 while we await them to test deeper (as well as our tester).

We attempted to do BigY-700 testing of our tester but the sample quality was not there and the tester has since passed. We have not tested any of his near relatives with the deeper test at this time. FTDNA was able to upgrade to y11 STR from y37 with the remaining sample though. We also did a FamilyFinder test.

Deeper ySNP Analysis

Haplo R1b FT232193* Carroll Muse STRs
R-Z198 incl. R-SRY2627 Project STR FT232193
Haplo R1b FT232193* Carroll Muse FTDNA Tree
R1b-FT232193 FTDNA Block Tree
We can correlate other results to get a predicted deeper haplogroup than the R-CTS4299 already measured. This is possible using the public "R-Z198 incl. R-SRY2627" (FTDNA) group that places our tester in one of dozens of CTS4299 subgroups. The last five entries in grouping "A381. R-FT230653 (CTS4299+ BY12112+)" within that project are very tightly tied in STR values out to y111. Our Carroll tester is one of those five as is the other CTS4299 tester in the Muse group. But also there is the Muse tester with kit ID 323022 that BigY tested. There are many others in this group that BigY tested but none matched this other Muse testers and the close STR matching of the last five entries. So we can take R-FT232193* from kit 323022 as a closer terminal haplogroup likely for our tester. This project subgroup STR results are shown here along with the corresponding BigY Block Chart for that area. Note that this paragroup is likely formed around 3,000 years ago. So still well before surnames.

Created by Randy. Last Modification: Sunday 26 of January, 2025 17:56:04 EST by Randy. (Version 22)
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