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<p>(Apologies to Zele descendants as this applies to the Rogelj
line. We have even less to go on with the origins of Zele!)</p>
<p>Ref: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://gen.mycuz.us/family.php?famid=F464">http://gen.mycuz.us/family.php?famid=F464</a><br>
</p>
<p>Cousins,</p>
<p>There have been many false starts in trying to figure out the
Rogelj's origination in Slovenia. With the recent success of the
Kosak line and the find of a new site mapire.eu, I wanted to
recollect my thoughts on the Rogelj line. Just in case the
Rogelj's could have come from the same village as the Kosaks.
Below is me documenting everything I have to date. Have as yet to
hear if Mary Ellen, our 2nd cousin on the Rogelj side in Montana,
has anything more to refine this information.<br>
</p>
<p>My current best guess as to the village for the Rogelj's is one
of the Nemska vas villages very near Trebnje. They were
historically known as Deutschdorf or literally "german village".
Need to now find a parish name for that time covering each village
in order to initiate the record search process in Slovenia.<br>
</p>
<p>One key thing is I think we can rule out the Slovenska Vas name I
had been going with since some interaction with Charles Rougle a
number of years ago. Partly because of the lack of a DNA match
there but also because our lines really do appear different. It
was, in essence, a false lead.<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-forward-container">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<p><span style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: sans-serif;
font-size: 14px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">Randy<br>
</span></p>
<p><b><font size="+2"><u><span style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34);
font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px;
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal;
orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color:
initial;">Details</span></u></font></b><br>
</p>
<p>As a reminder, my Rogelj records indicate the original village
as:<br>
</p>
<ul>
<li> Rudolfswert (Novo Mesto) from Maria and Anna's passenger
list (Mary Jeric nee Rogelj, Anna Kosak nee Rogelj)</li>
<li> Deutschdorf for father John and sister Josephine's
passenger list (Josephine Frost nee Gliko nee Rogelj)</li>
<li> Trebnje for brother John passenger list and naturalization
paper (95% sure this is the correct John)<br>
</li>
</ul>
<p>Various possibilities of the original village using this
information are (using current names):</p>
<ol>
<li>Gorenja <span style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family:
sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">Nemška vas,
Trebnje (on 1890 map as Oberdeutschdorf) (upper, west side)</span><span
style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: sans-serif;
font-size: 14px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial;"></span><span
style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: sans-serif;
font-size: 14px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial;"></span></li>
<li><span style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family:
sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">Dolenja </span><span
style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: sans-serif;
font-size: 14px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">Nemška vas,
Trebnje (on 1890 map as Unterdeutschdorf) (lower, east side)</span><span
style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: sans-serif;
font-size: 14px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial;"></span></li>
<li><span style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family:
sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">Nemška vas na
Blokah, Nova Vas (Nova Vas was formerly Neudorf)</span><span
style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: sans-serif;
font-size: 14px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial;"></span></li>
<li><span style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family:
sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">Nemška vas,
Ribnica (one shown on clip earlier; near Nova Vas)</span><span
style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: sans-serif;
font-size: 14px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial;"></span></li>
<li><span style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family:
sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">Nemška vas,
Leskovec pri Kr</span><span style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34);
font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px;
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
255, 255); text-decoration-style: initial;
text-decoration-color: initial;">škem (west of Kr</span><span
style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: sans-serif;
font-size: 14px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial;"><span
style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: sans-serif;
font-size: 14px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
255, 255); text-decoration-style: initial;
text-decoration-color: initial;"></span><span
style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: sans-serif;
font-size: 14px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
255, 255); text-decoration-style: initial;
text-decoration-color: initial;">š</span>ko)</span></li>
</ol>
<p>Ends up there are a number of Deutschdorf's on the mapire.eu
1890's map as has been indicated before in various sources. So
still not clear which is the correct one. They have not
digitized the name Deutchsdorf to search by. The "search"
feature on mapire.eu is actually using openmaps of today. So I
searched for <span style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family:
sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">Nemška vas which was
listed along with the german Deutschdor as the name in the
1890 maps. (I also searched Slovenska vas for historical
reasons.)</span></p>
<ol>
</ol>
<p><span style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: sans-serif;
font-size: 14px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">Slovenska Vas near
Sentrupert is listed in Wikipedia and other places as formerly
</span><span style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family:
sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial;"><span style="color:
rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px;
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
255, 255); text-decoration-style: initial;
text-decoration-color: initial;"><span style="color: rgb(34,
34, 34); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px;
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
255, 255); text-decoration-style: initial;
text-decoration-color: initial;">Nemška vas and formerly
Deutschdorf</span></span>. But this is only identified on
the 1890 map </span><span style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34);
font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px;
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
255, 255); text-decoration-style: initial;
text-decoration-color: initial;">as Schl. Watzenberg
(Castle?). So must have been the name changed to and added
much later? The other main Slovenska vas is on the Croatian
border near Zagreb and is named Breganskoselo in the old map.
The other two Slovenska vas are not labeled Deutschdorf either
in the 1890 old map either. The only time I find Deutschdorf
on the old map is in association with the Slovenian name </span><span
style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: sans-serif;
font-size: 14px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial;"><span style="color:
rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px;
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
255, 255); text-decoration-style: initial;
text-decoration-color: initial;"><span style="color: rgb(34,
34, 34); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px;
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
255, 255); text-decoration-style: initial;
text-decoration-color: initial;">Nemška vas (on
corresponding old and new maps)</span></span></span>.
(BTW, I do confirm on this 1890 map that Rudolfswert is Novo
Mesto.) So am not considering Slovenska vas any more.<br>
</p>
<p>So, in trying to determine further which of these villages is
possible:<br>
</p>
<ul>
<li> Options (1) & (2) <span style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34);
font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px;
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
255, 255); text-decoration-style: initial;
text-decoration-color: initial;">Gorenja and Dolenja </span><span
style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: sans-serif;
font-size: 14px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">Nemška vas </span>fits
best for brother John who says he is from Trebnje</li>
<li> Options (1) & (2) are closest to Rudolfswert / Novo
Mesto which is indicated by sisters Maria and Anna (and
confirmed on the 1890 map). Options (3) & (4) are pretty
distant from Novo Mesto as is (5) -- other major
municipalities from 1890 are much closer.<br>
</li>
</ul>
<p> So guess this is all pointing to (1) / (2) <span
style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: sans-serif;
font-size: 14px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial;"><span style="color:
rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px;
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255,
255, 255); text-decoration-style: initial;
text-decoration-color: initial;">Gorenja or </span>Dolenja
</span><span style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family:
sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">Nemška vas </span>as
likely. <br>
</p>
<p>But why would sisters list Novo Mesto given Trebnje has been a
municipality on its own all along? Trebnje not big enough?<br>
</p>
<p>Here is a map showing all the various points:</p>
<p><img src="cid:part1.B4B3C738.89DE0601@mycuz.us" alt="" class=""
height="413" width="884"></p>
<p>So from <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://mapire.eu/en/synchron/thirdsurvey75000/"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://mapire.eu/en/synchron/thirdsurvey75000/</a>
, I show (2) above as an example:<br>
</p>
<p><img src="cid:part3.140B87A1.98D5BDDA@mycuz.us" alt="" class=""
height="983" width="863"></p>
<span style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: sans-serif;
font-size: 14px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-style:
initial; text-decoration-color: initial;"></span><br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/5/2018 10:35 AM, Randy Harr
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:08bd3dd3-5223-6db7-578c-eac6151199a3@mycuz.us">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=utf-8">
....
<p>Here is my Rogelj info.</p>
<p><font size="+2"><b><font color="#ff0000">Sisters Maria and
Anna departure from Hamburg, 10 May 1898. Say from
Rudolfswert which I take to be Novo Mesto.</font></b></font><br>
</p>
<p><img src="cid:part4.104848CA.A10E05C9@mycuz.us" alt=""
class=""><br>
<font size="+2" color="#ff0000"><b>Father and sister John's
arrival at Ellis Island, 17 Oct 1899 from Deutschdor which
I take to be Slovenska Vas (but which one?):</b></font><img
src="cid:part5.3684B760.9C0816E8@mycuz.us" alt="" class=""><br>
</p>
<p>Notice it says the father came before in 1898/90. Cannot
make out where it says he was then though it appears maybe
XXX, Minnesota. He is in the 1900 census in Helena, Montana
working in a smelter.<br>
</p>
<p><font size="+2" color="#ff0000"><b>Brother John's
Naturalization which lists Trebnje as birth location:</b></font><br>
</p>
<p><img src="cid:part6.228B8D85.8C1D5DAB@mycuz.us" alt=""
class=""></p>
<p>Think this was correct based on the father's name, wifes name
and witness is brother in law Joseph Jeric. But not 100% like
the others. Many John's married Mary's.<br>
</p>
<p><img src="cid:part7.417BE073.E09358E8@mycuz.us" alt=""
class=""></p>
<p>Recall that I mentioned before that Petra went off and
researched the name / line. Rogelj is near like Smith or
Hrovath. Pretty dominate. John Rogelj is even worse. There
are many of the same age and in Cleveland and Montana -- where
my John was. And they are all going back and forth it seems.
For example, there is our John Rogelj born 15 June 1891 and a
John Rogel born 25 June 1891 and living in Summit, Ohio
(outside Cleveland). We have only started to distinguish lines
via autosomal testing of descendants. So not worth anyone
looking in American records further (at this time). I am
still searching for a possible Naturalization record for
Josephine Frost nee Gliko nee Rogelj or her husband.<br>
</p>
<p><font size="+1" color="#ff0000"><b>In pulling this together,
I just noticed that a Johann Glicka traveled with Maria
and Anna. Their sister Josephine, who came a year later
with the dad, married a Martin Gliko shortly after
arriving. It says Johann was going to Cleveland. This
may be the connection for Josephine.</b></font><br>
</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
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